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דעת תורה בענין שערורית מצות מילה כהלכתה

34 פאסטס אין ארכיוו · אשכול #1287989

מאירקע » 18/2/2005 16:31

דעת תורה בענין שערורית מצות מילה כהלכתה
[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

selish » 20/2/2005 03:15

מה קורה בארה"ב בימים אלו בענין מצות מילה?

יענטא » 20/2/2005 06:34

אין וויליאמסבורג איז פארגעקומען א גרויסע אסיפה דאנערשטאג ביינאכט ביי הרה"ג ואב"ד דקהל ייטב לב סאטמאר ווילמסבורג מיט הרב פישער בראש
איינער האט די קאפיע פון דעם בריוו וואס איז געחתמעט געווארן ביי די אסיפה
ביטע אריינסקענען לטובת הציבור

selish » 20/2/2005 18:26

קאפי פעיסט פון אלע אשכולות אין דעם ענין




5:56 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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אין די פארברייטונג צו די אסיפת הרבנים של התאחדות הרבנים איז פארגעקומען דאנערשטיג נאכט א אסיפה פין אריבער דריי שעה אין שטוב פין הגה"צ אב"ד סאטמער פין די אישי ציבור אין גרויסע מוהלים אין דאקטורים אין לויערס אין שפיץ פין הרב פישער שליט"א וואס איז דער ציל ברעט פין די מערכה כדת מה לעשות אין דעם קאמף אנטקעגן די מרשיע ברית
וואס מעו האט אדורך געשמיעסט דעם הלכה אין השקפה וואס די ערליכע רבנים דארפען זיך צוזאם נעמען אין אויסשרייען דעם דבר ה לעם ישראל כדת מה לעשות אין זיין גרייט סיי בגוף אין סיי בממון אויף אלע אופנים אין וואס די תכסיסי מלחה זאלען זיין
עשה למען בריתך
ekstein

6:7 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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וועלכע רבנים זענען געווען אנוועזענד?
וועט קרית יואל'ער רב זיין ביי די אסיפה פון התאחדות הרבנים?
אינגערמאן

15:54 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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הרב פישער וואס איז דער עיקר טארגעט אין איז דער ציל פין די שונאי ישראל האט אויפגעטערעטען מיט א רעדע פין איבער א שעה מיט די פינקטליכע השתלשלות הענינים וואס איז פארגעאנגען מהחל ועד כלה איו די לויערס האבן איבערגעשמיעסט אלע צדדים לגבי די לעגאלע מיטלען וואס דארפען אין קענטעניס גענומען ווערן צו זיין גרייט אויף אלע אומשטענדען אין די מוהלים וואס א יעדע פין זיי האט א היסטערי פין מל זיין אלפי שלומי אמוני ישראל די בכל אתר ואתר אין אישי ציבור ווא סהאבן די ריכטיגע קאנטאקטען מיט די סיטי אין סטעיט אויף צו פארמיידען ן די פראבלעמען וואס איז שוין ארויס געקומען פין די מרשיעי ברית
אין דער רב מיט זיין גרויס מתינות אין חכמה אין סייעתא דשמיא וואס ווי באקאנט א מומחה עתיק אין אזויליכע האקעלע ענינים ורבים נהנים ממנו עצה ותושיה האבן בכובד ראש דן געווען די ריכטיגע מהלכים וואס עס זאל אנגענומען ווערן אין עס וועט ווערן אדורך געשמיעסט ברוב יועץ אי"ה ביי די מיטונג פין התאחדות הרבנים

ויהי נועם ה עלינו
ekstein

16:24 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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אינטערעסאנט אז הרב פישער ווערט נישט מיד!

זונטאג פ' תרומה האט הרב פישער גערעדט אנדעטהאלבן שעה, ביי א מיטונג אין מאנסי מיט רבנים און לויער'ס, כפי עדותו של הרה"צ חיים יושע האלבערשטאם!!

אפשר רעכענט הרב פישער אז די וומ"ס לויער'ס פארשטייען מער ווי די מאנסי'ער?...

חוץ אויב ס'איז יעצט געווען א "געלט-אקציע" פאר הרב פישער..., אויב יא! דארף מען שרייבן אזוי: מעכטיגע געלט אקציע איז פארגעקומען ביי ר' זלמן לייב אין שטוב, און דער רב וואס איז באקאנט מיט זיין גרויס רחמנות אויף א צווייטן איד האט אים גאר שטארק ארויסגעהאלפן, און הרב פישער איז ארויס מיט איבער 2.5 מיליאן דאלאר!!+ 10 הבטחות!
משהבערבעק

selish » 20/2/2005 18:31

כנ"ל




17:57 10/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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אויפן די רוף פין הרב פישער ווער איז דער צילברעט פין
די אזוי גערופעאנע מושחתים אין מרשיעי ברית וואס ווילען אינטער איצטלא פין מכלומרש
היגענישע אין געזונהייטס סיבות אויסרייסען אין אויפהעצען א גזירות המילה זענען זיך צוזאם געקומען חשובע רבנים יושבים על מדין מיט די אקטיווע מיטיילונג פין התאחדות הרבנים אין אנדערע חרדישע ארגעניזאציעס וואס קוקען מיט גרויס אחריות אין פארכט אז עס עס זאל ח"ו נישט ווערן א גזירות המלכות אויך אריבער די גרעניצען פין ראקלענד קאונטי אין ניו יארק סיטי איז שוין אין פולע אינוועסטיגעשאן וואס מען קען נישט פאראויס זאגען ווי עס וועט אנקומען פאר די מרשיעי ברית

צו מאכן צרות פא ראלע חרדישע אידן אומעטום (וואס די או יו צווייפעלהאפטגע סטעיטמענט

"It is very, very rare for the mohel to suck out the blood himself," said Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, which represents Orthodox congregations in North America.

"The mohalim I speak to in our community say they use latex gloves and a glass tube for suction, and they take every precaution so they do not come into contact with the baby's blood and the baby does not come into contact with their blood," Weinreb said. "This is for the protection of the baby and, frankly, for the protection of the mohel, because one never knows what the baby might be carrying from the parent."

האבן שוין געברענגט
אין דער פארלאנג אז התאחדות הרבנים זאל ארויסגעבו א סטעיטמענט אין הלכה וואס איז שוין געווען באהאנלעט מיט יארן צוריק ביי אסיפות אין התאחדות הרבנים אין ארויס קומען מיט אפענע מחאה קעגו די מרשיעי ברית איז ביזדעווייל געווארען באשלאסען דערוועגן אז כדי עס זאל נישט ווערן מער אויפגעפלאקרט דעם רייץ ביי די מרשיעי ברית צו מאכן דערפין אן אינטערנאציאנאלער פראבלעם וואס אזא פרסום אין די פרעסע קען נאך מער שאדו האבן האט מען שוקל געווען בכובד ראש אין ביזדערווייל איז די החלטה געווען מיט צושטעלען לעגאלע הילף פאר הרב פישער אין יעדעם איינעם וואס ווערט פארפלאנטערט אינעם פראבלעםאין מען וועט ווארטען אויף די רעזאלטאטען פין די העלט דעפארטמענסאין נאכדעם זעהן צו מען דארף אינטערנעמען א לעגאלען קאמף אנטקעגן די מרשיעי ברית

צוה להציל שארינו משחת למען בריתך
ekstein

0:47 11/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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דינסטאג נאכט, איז געווען א אין סאטמאר ביהמ"ד אין מאנסי א סעודת הילולא פארן קדושת יו"ט, און הרב ר' חיים יושע האלבערשטאם האט ארימגערעדט באריכות פון די פרשה "מציצה בפה".
אינמיטן די דרשה האט ער גענומען "שטורעמען"! דאס בלוט איז אים ארויף אין קאפ! ער האט געשריגן כה"ל:
לאזט זיך נישט גלייבן, אז היינט אין אמעריקא זאל דאס קענען פאסירן!
זיי וועלן דאס נישט קענען אויספירן! די גמרא (שבת) דרשנ'ט דעם פסוק: כי עליך הרגנו כל היום, אויף מצות מילה. איז אוודאי וועלן זיי דאס נישט קענען דערגרייכן.
אוודאי וועלן זיי דאס נישט קענען דערגרייכן פלוצלונג, אין איין טאג, אבער זייער ציל איז אויף שפעטער, אויפן לענגערן טערמין אז ס'זאל אינגאנצן בטל ווערן.
וואס וויל איך דא ארויסברענגן? איך וויל דאס מודיע זיין פאר יעדעם, די חברה וואס האבן זיך פארלייגט דא אויף די "מציצה" די מיינען נישט הרב פישער, ער איז נאר א קרבן ציבור, זיי צילן דא אינטערצוברענגן די גאנצע ענין פון מציצה בפה, זיי זאגן דאס קלאר, אז זיי גייען דאס אויסרייסן.
איך וויל דא מודיע זיין ברבים, עס פארקויפט זיך אסאך מעשיות אויף הרב פישער, "ס'איז שקר וכזב"!
מיר זענען געזעצן נעכטן ביי א מיטונג מיט אלע רבנים פון די שטאט, דער רב פישער איז מנוקה מכל עוון!


משהבערבעק

21:11 11/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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Circumcision tragedy shines spotlight on rituals of ultra-Orthodox community

by Johanna Ginsberg
NJJN Staff Writer

Accusations that an infant died after contracting herpes from the man who performed his ritual circumcision have highlighted sharp differences in practices between some haredi, or ultra-Orthodox, Jewish communities and other Jewish factions.

According to a complaint filed in Manhattan Supreme Court by the state's health department and publicized on Feb. 2 in the New York Daily News, Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer, a hasidic mohel in Monsey, used his mouth to draw blood from the penis during the ritual circumcision of twins last October. One of the babies died from herpes. The other tested positive for the virus caused by herpes.

While a spokesman for a haredi group said the practice of using the mouth to draw blood is ''normative'' among the ultra-Orthodox, Conservative mohalim call the practice one of ''extremists'' and ''fanatics,'' and Modern Orthodox authorities also say they reject the procedure, and that it is ''very, very rare, even in other communities.''

Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, an advocacy group for haredi Judaism, called the practice, known as metzitza bapeh, ''normative'' among all haredi Jews, who include hasidic and non-hasidic movements. ''In the yeshivish haredi world, it is de rigueur to do metzitza bapeh,'' Shafran told the New Jersey Jewish News. ''I have seen it at all of the brisim [circumcisions] I have been to, including my own sons and one of my grandsons. There's never anything to talk about. It's just done.''

But Rabbi Elazar Teitz, a leader of the Jewish Educational Center in Elizabeth and its affiliated congregations, who said he feels equally at home among modern Orthodox and haredi camps, said that ''in a good part of the haredi community, metzitza bapeh is not used.''

Conservative and Modern Orthodox mohalim say the practice was dropped from Judaism long ago.

''The mohalim I know perform circumcision in strict compliance with medical standards that assure that the procedure is safe and sterile,'' said Rabbi Mark Cooper of the Conservative Oheb Shalom Congregation in South Orange, who is a mohel.

''It is not a custom used in modern Orthodox communities,'' said a spokesperson from the Orthodox Union. ''Mohalim in modern communities use latex gloves and a glass tube for suction, and they take every precaution so they do not come into contact with the baby's blood and the baby does not come into contact with their blood.''

And Teitz said, ''I have seen the practice being done, but if I were asked, I would tell a mohel not to do it. The tube is used virtually exclusively [in our community]. This is something I learned from my father, and he was certainly accepted [as an authority] in the haredi world.''

At the heart of the controversy is the third of three steps in a circumcision required under Halacha, or rabbinic law. After the removal of the foreskin and removal of the inner membrane underlying the foreskin, the mohel must draw out a drop of blood. The practice is known as metzitza, from the Hebrew ''to suck.'' Many Conservative mohalim perform metzitza with gauze, while Orthodox mohalim use a sterilized glass tube filled with gauze to prevent direct contact. Health officials in New York said the mohel performing the fatal circumcision performed the practice bapeh, or by mouth.

''The kind of mohel that did this is someone who lives in a different world, who ignores the evidence of medical reality,'' said Cooper. ''For example, he may not wear gloves, preferring to focus on the religious and theological aspects of the ceremony and overlook matters of hygiene.''

Of the four Conservative mohalim in the local area, only one uses a tube. The rest use gauze. ''The Halacha is to have a drop of blood,'' said Cantor Menachem Toren of the Pine Brook Jewish Center Chevra Agudas Achim Anshy in Montville. ''You only need to touch the penis and it starts to bleed. I use a piece of gauze. It's just the extremists of the extremists that do metzitza [orally], and only the ultra-Orthodox that use the tube.''

Cantor Richard Nadel of the Conservative Temple Beth Ahm in Springfield also uses gauze. He said the traditional reason for metzitza was to ensure the baby's health, a justification rendered moot by modern medical knowledge. ''In antiquity, the mohel would suck the blood from the penis to draw out infection and then spit the blood into a plate of dirt.''

Before the modern era, however, mohalim were unaware that the mouth is full of bacteria.

''This is the best way to communicate disease,'' said Nadel. ''They recognized from time to time a baby would get an infection. They did not know what caused it. They felt if they drew the blood, they would prevent infection.''

Several of those interviewed for this story also indicated that, in today's world of HIV and other diseases, there is a danger posed not only to the baby, but to the mohel as well. The OU spokesperson said that one prominent rabbi of an OU-affiliated community who is also an ''experienced'' mohel would only use the procedure on his own children. ''They are the only ones he can vouch for'' in terms of their health.

Calls to Rabbi Yeheskel Lebovic, a mohel from the local Lubavitch Hasidic community, were not returned.

A study that appeared in the August 2004 issue of Pediatrics concluded that the practice of metzitza bapeh places newborns at risk of contracting the herpes virus from the mohalim who perform it and should be discontinued. Rabbi Moshe Tendler of Yeshiva University was among those conducting the study.

But Shafran of Agudath Israel insists that there is not enough evidence to reject the practice. ''Show me the money — show me the sampling of cases,'' he said. ''If the transfer of virus was likely, we'd be seeing a large number of babies from the haredi communities showing up in hospitals. But they're not….If there is no evidence, then the guesswork about the danger is just that. This is a terrible tragedy. But to leap from an isolated instance to say there's a problem with a practice going on from time immemorial, when worldwide there are only a handful of cases where this is even a suspect, it's not the monster people say it is.''

Cooper nonetheless suggests that parents gather information before hiring a mohel. ''I urge any parent who will be having a bris to be fully aware of the medical standards a mohel follows, including wearing gloves and sterilizing instruments. What this mohel did was extraordinarily irresponsible, and should not be condoned by Jewish law.''

But, he added, Jewish families should continue to have their babies circumcised by mohalim.

''Mohalim can and should perform this ritual, following high standards for proper medical care and safety. I follow such standards, as do all the mohalim I know.''

Johanna Ginsberg can be reached at jginsberg@njjewishnews.com.


Copyright 2004 New Jersey Jewish News. All rights reserved. For subion information call 973.887.8500.



ekstein

21:13 11/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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Rockland orders rabbi to undergo a herpes test



By STEVE LIEBERMAN
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: February 10, 2005)


The Rockland health commissioner has ordered a Monsey rabbi to stop performing oral-suction circumcisions and to take a herpes test.

Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer's ritual method also has come under scrutiny from the New York state and Orange County health departments, officials said yesterday. The rabbi's techniques are not illegal, but pose a potential health hazard, officials said.

The New York City Health Department has said three infants circumcised by Fischer contracted herpes and that one died.

Fischer uses his mouth to suction blood from the wound after he removes the foreskin. The centuries-old ritual, called metzizah bi peh, is used predominantly by Hasidic Jews. Many rabbis say Jewish law does not mandate mouth suction; defenders contend the spread of disease is rare.

New York City health officials have prohibited Fischer from performing circumcisions and ordered him to take a blood test for herpes simplex virus type 1. Lawyers for the city and Fischer have declined to discuss whether the rabbi took the test and the results if he did.

Dr. Joan Facelle, the Rockland health commissioner, issued the same prohibition this week and ordered the rabbi to take a blood test Monday.

"We're trying to ascertain if he carries the virus, which would make him capable of transmitting it to the population," Facelle said.

Facelle said she hoped the rabbi would comply and take the blood test. If not, she said, the county would take him to court.

Hillel M. Kurzmann, who represents Fischer with his father, Mark J. Kurzmann, said yesterday that the county's order was similar to New York City's.

"We are eager to learn the true source of the infection," Hillel Kurzmann said. "He is cooperating with the city. He will cooperate as much as possible with the county."

Mark Kurzmann has said the rabbi performed the traditional circumcision at the parents' request. He uses sterilized instruments and antiseptic mouthwash, Kurzmann said.

Most mohelim who perform that part of the ritual use a medical tube to suction the blood.

Fischer's methods came under scrutiny when a Manhattan newborn died of herpes in November and his twin was diagnosed with the virus a little more than two weeks after the rabbi performed their circumcisions in October. A Staten Island newborn also circumcised by Fischer was diagnosed with herpes in November.

The state Health Department is working with New York City, Rockland and other counties, spokesman Robert Kenney said yesterday.

"We're interviewing the two families," Kenney said. "One of our priorities is to ensure the infants and the families get appropriate medical attention."

Herpes is not a reportable disease in New Jersey, a state Health Department spokeswoman there said yesterday. There is no inquiry there involving the rabbi.

County health departments in New York state don't license mohelim or oversee circumcision because it's a religious ritual.

Fischer, 66, is a respected mohel in the region and in Israel and was trained in circumcisions by the British Milah Society, a rabbinical group.

The Orange County health commissioner, Dr. Jean M. Hudson, said yesterday that her department would meet with the Jewish community, specifically the Satmar Hasidic community of Kiryas Joel in Monroe.

"We're preparing to alert the Hasidic community," she said, "that this circumcision practice is not hygienic and has potential risks."


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ekstein

20:0 14/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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שבת פרשת משפטים ביי שלש סעודות און נייטרא ביהמ"ד און מאנסי האט הרב ווייסמאנדל גאזגט ביי די שלש סעודה תורה א פייערדיגע דרשה וועגן די מרשיעי ברית בכלל און דר. טענדלער בפרט ווי ער וויל עוקר זיין די מצות התורה און מען דארף לוחם זיין קעגן דעם.

און זיי מיינען נישט נאר מציצה בפה נאר זיי ווילן ח"ו אז די רעגירונג זאל אנפירן אלע בריתן ווי אנטון א וויסע כאלאט און LATX GLOVS וכו' וכו' היל"ת

דער עיקר אז מען דארף מתפלל זיין להעביר את רוע הגזירה
און מען זאל ח"ו נישט משנה זיין און מען זאל ווייטער טוען די מצות מילה כהלכתה מיט מציצה בפה דוקא
בעל_גאוה

20:12 14/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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מוצ"ש תרומה איז געווען א מלוה מלכה פאר ליזענסקער חדר און מאנסי האבן זיי גערופן ר' מנשה פילאפ צו זאגן א דרשה וועגן מציצה בפה

ער האט גערדט בערך א שעה צייט און ער האט געשטורעמט אקעגן דעם דר. טענדלער ווי ער וויל עוקר זיין די מצות השם און ער אין א רשע א עוכר ישראל און ווי הארב עס איז געווען דער ענין פון מציצה ובפה דוקא, מיט מקורות פון גדולי ישראל וראשונים ואחרונים.

און ער האט נאכגעזאגט בשם מהרי"ל דיסקין אז כשיבוא אליהו במהרה ווייסט ער שווער אויב מען וועט זיי לאזן עסן פון קרבן פסח -פאר די וואס האבן געהאט מציצה בכלי- ווייל זיי זענען גערעכנט ווי ערלים רח"ל


ובשם השם נעשה ונצליח
בעל_גאוה

20:40 14/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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איינע פון די זאכען וואס דער אגודת ישראל האט איינגעפירט אין די לעצטע יאהרן איז 'עם אחד'

אן עקסטערע אפטייל וואס איז געשטעלט צו באקעמפען אטאקעס קעגען חרדי'שע אידען איבער דעם גאנצער וועלט

רוב זאכען ווערן געטוהן שטולערהייט אין זיי האבען שוין גורם געוועהן א סאך קידוש השם אין אויך בעיקר מונע געוועהן חילול השם.

רב אבי (אברהם) שאפראן איז דער הויפט מנהל פון דער פראיעקט ער איז אן אוצר פאר כלל ישראל ...

איך בין אויף זיין EMAIL ליסטע אין דא וועל איך לייגען א קאפי פון זיין ארטיקל וואס ווערט געשיקט צו הונדערטער אידיש'ע צייטונגען איבער גאנץ אמעריקע.




OF RITES AND RISKS

Rabbi Avi Shafran

Not long ago, a Jewish family in New York suffered a terrible tragedy, the death of one of their infant twin boys. The cause was determined to be an infection of herpes simplex type 1, the virus that causes cold sores - and for which, according to the National Institutes of Health, antibodies are present (indicating at least a one-time infection) in up to 90% of adults. The HSV-1 virus causes only discomfort in adults, but in a baby, with its undeveloped immune system, the infection can be more dangerous, even fatal on rare occasions. This case, sadly, was one of those rare occasions.



The tragedy, however, did not remain a private one. It became the focus of media reports around the world, because of the possibility, raised by New York City health authorities, that the infant may have contracted the virus from the ritual circumciser who performed his bris, or Jewish ritual circumcision. Since the circumciser, or mohel (plural: mohelim), applied oral suction to the wound, which is a part of the bris-procedure in many Jewish communities, the suspicion arose that the virus may have been present in the mohel, at least in a dormant stage, and may have thus passed on to the baby during the procedure.



The mohel in question, who is widely respected and experienced (he has reportedly performed over 12,000 circumcisions), is currently under order to refrain from the oral suctioning procedure and to undergo tests for the herpes virus. He is cooperating with health authorities.



Many Jewish ritual circumcisers, particularly in the haredi community, consider the time-honored - and, for most of Jewish history, universal - oral method to be an indispensable religious requirement. Others, though, address the Jewish religious law of applying suction to the wound (itself, interestingly, based on a health concern, the drawing of infectious agents away from the wound) by employing an intervening glass tube. Some use gauze compresses and dispense with the suction altogether.



And so calls have been issued to insist that all mohelim hew to those approaches.



Two doctors, for example, in a study in The Pediatrics Infectious Disease Journal urged that "public health officials and leaders of the Jewish community should act to modify the part of the circumcision ritual that involves direct oral contact with the blood... of neonates."



Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler, an Orthodox rabbi and biologist, is even more adamant. "I'm particularly disturbed," he told a reporter, "that once this information becomes available, the mohelim don't do what they're told," namely dispense with the oral suctioning procedure.



In a medical paper in Pediatrics, a group of medical doctors and researchers, including Rabbi Dr. Tendler, assert, without evidence or citation, that "the great majority of ritual circumcisions" are performed without oral suction. They further declare that Orthodox religious authorities who insist on the traditional method (a list that includes some of the most distinguished rabbinic leaders of recent decades) have done so only because they "have felt threatened by criticism of the old religious customs."



Scientists should certainly offer the results of their research. They are perfectly welcome, too, to take positions on medically related matters. But when they begin to wax derisive of rabbinic authorities, impugning their motivations and challenging their religious decisions, expertise threatens to morph into arrogance.



To be sure, were infections like the one that took the life of the New York infant to be proven likely, or even common, results of oral suctioning, medical authorities would have the right to do what was necessary to protect the public - and religious authorities would be no less concerned. Indeed, even in Talmudic times, when a risk was perceived by the deaths of a baby's brothers after their circumcisions (implying hemophilia), the newborn was not to be circumcised at all unless it became clear that he was healthy.



But the evidence of material risk as a result of traditional circumcision is far from persuasive. In fact, a number of pediatricians and pediatric urologists with scores of years of experience between them serving communities in which countless baby boys were circumcised in the traditional manner - have reported that they have never seen even one case of circumcision-related herpes infection in newborns.



So if there is a risk in the age-old method, it does not appear at present to be a great one. And while our first reaction might well be to righteously insist that "any risk is too great," we might pause to consider: Is there no risk at all to circumcision itself? Or to any of myriad activities that society happily sanctions without any pang of conscience - not only things like bungee-jumping and motorcycle riding (or SUV driving), but prosaic activities, too, like high school football, cosmetic surgery and crossing city streets?



And so the questions must be asked: Should religious practices be more subject than entertainment or vanity to governmental or societal coercion? Does that really square with our nation's commitment to religious freedom?



They shouldn't, of course, and it doesn't.


© AM ECHAD RESOURCES



[Rabbi Shafran is director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America]


yohcee718

0:11 17/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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דאס רשעות פין די מרשעי ברית וואס קענען נישט אויסהאלטען אז דער טעסט איז דארעך ווי עס דארף צו זיין
אין אלעס איז א בלויזער בלוט בילבול שרייבען די נייעס אזוי אביעקטיוו מיט א דערקענטע רשעות אזווייל זייטס זיכער אז ווען עס קומט ווען צוריק פאזעטיוו וואלט שוין פין פרייטאג ביז יעצט די פרעסע פיל פין דעםאין יעצט אז זיי האבן נשיט קיין מקום ווייטער צו שפינען די מעשה דרייט מען ארום מיטדי נייעס ווי אזוי די מרשעי ברית טוען דירעטירען
מען ברויך אריין טראכטען צו מען דארף נישט נאכדעם נעמען פובליק רעלעשאנס פירמע אין עס צושמירען קעגן טענדלער אז דאס איז בלויז רשעות אין אפילו עם קלאגען אין געריכט דערפאר למען ישמעו ויראו אז אז דער קאמף פאר קעגו רעליגע איז פארבאטען אין אמעריע
אבער איז דא א אנדערע מהלך עס אפצושטילען מיט א בדיל ויעבור אין נישט מער רודערען כדי עס זאל נישט ווערן מער אויפגעפלאמט די שנאה פין די מרשעי ברית

עס א צייט וואס דארף א ערנסטע שיקול הדעת פין די ערליכע רבנים וואס זענען במקום החלל ווי למשל מאנסי בפרט אין גאנץ ניו יארק בכלל










State gets rabbi's herpes test
By JAMES WALSH
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: February 16, 2005)

The state Health Department has received the herpes test results of a Monsey rabbi suspected of passing on the virus to infants during a circumcision ritual.

State health officials subpoenaed the test results Friday, "but at this point in time, they're for internal use only," said Robert Kenney, a state Health Department spokesman.

Rockland County, Orange County and New York City health officials have prohibited Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, 66, from performing a portion of the ritual that entails sucking blood from the wound.

Three infants circumcised by Fischer, including one who died, had contracted herpes, according to the New York City Health Department.

Fischer's attorney, Mark Jay Kurzman of Pearl River, was upset yesterday that word of the subpoena had reached the media.

"I have no comment on what ought to be a confidential, discreet governmental investigation," Kurzman said.

He also would not comment on a court session scheduled for today regarding the prohibition against Fischer's performing the full circumcision ritual.

Gabriel Taussig, chief of the administrative law division of the New York City Law Department, confirmed yesterday that the city had complied with the subpoena but declined to discuss the test results.

Taussig said today's court session in Manhattan was to be a conference among all the parties. The city is seeking a preliminary injunction that would prohibit Fischer from performing the full ritual until the case is resolved.

The ritual, which involves the sucking of blood, is predominantly used by Hasidic Jews.

The circumcisions by Fischer drew the attention of public health officials after a Manhattan newborn died of herpes in November, and his twin was diagnosed with the virus, about two weeks after their circumcisions. A third infant, from Staten Island, also was diagnosed soon after his bris.

County health departments do not regulate the religious ritual.



Reach James Walsh at jawalsh@thejournalnews.com or 845-578-2445.Reach James Walsh at jawalsh@thejournalnews.com or 845-578-2445.







ekstein

5:38 17/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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דנייאל פרק יא לב

וּמַרְשִׁיעֵי בְרִית, יַחֲנִיף בַּחֲלַקּוֹת; וְעַם יֹדְעֵי אֱלֹהָיו, יַחֲזִקוּוְעָשׂוּ.
ekstein

17:33 17/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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יא! שוין ארויסגעקומען א קול קורא, מיט 12 רבנים פון מאנסי!

ווערט נישט באליידיגט, עס שטייט אינטן: חתימות עדיין נתקבלו...
משהבערבעק

16:33 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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איך הער אז הרב שלעיזינגער פון מאנסי האט נעכטען נאכט בי זיין שיעור געהאקט פעך און שוועבל אויף טענדלער אין געשריגן עפרא לפומיה
yakovber04

17:49 20/2/2005 - נשלח ב
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משה בער, איך האב שוין געשריבן אז איך האב געזען א צעטל מיט נאנט צו זעכציג רבנים, נישט נאר פון מאנסי, אויך פון ניו יארק, ניו זשערסי און אנדערע

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בנוגע עפרא לפומיה, אודאי, אז ער האט עפר אין מויל, קען ער דאך נישט מאכן קיין מציצה בפומיה, ווייל אין עפר לייגט מען נאר די ערלה (לכבוד פורים קטן).

ער איז סאך ערגער ווי עפרא לפומיה, איך האב געהערט אז א רב אין מאנסי האט געזאגט אויף איהם שחיק טמיא, ישחקו עצמותיו.
נבוכדנאצר

מנהל לחץ כאן לסגירת האשכול

פורומים > אקטואליה וחדשות > חדשות אנש בארהב ובעולם > אסיפת הרבנים במאנסי-מילה כהלכתה


zeidel » 21/2/2005 04:36

האט שוין הרב ברסדארפער געמל'ט 8000 בעיביס??!!!

מאירקע » 2/3/2005 03:26

[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

זאליweaky » 2/3/2005 05:26

צו איז אין ארץ ישראל אויך דא א מערכה וועגן מציצה בפה ?

מאירקע » 3/3/2005 04:48

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

מאירקע » 3/3/2005 04:48

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

ליכטיג » 3/3/2005 20:01

די OU רבנים נעמען זיך און פאר רב טענדלער אין בעטן מען זאל אויפהערן צו מאכען מציצה.

ליכטיג » 3/3/2005 20:05



Following Baby's Death, Orthodox Group Urges Followers to Drop Disputed Ritual
By Eric J. Greenberg
March 4, 2005

In response to the death of a New York baby boy from herpes, the top union of Modern Orthodox rabbis is urging Jews to abandon the ancient ritual practice of suctioning the blood by mouth directly from the baby's penis during circumcision.

The Rabbinical Council of America, representing more than 1,000 rabbis, issued a policy statement this week arguing that instead of direct oral suction the tradition known as metzitzah be-peh could be fulfilled with the use of a tube. The statement came following the death of a New York baby from herpes, which officials suspect might have been transmitted from the mouth of a Hasidic mohel during the circumcision process.

The RCA stated that a traditional Jewish circumcision, or brith milah, involves extracting blood from the wound or the surrounding tissue, using the mouth as the source of suction. But RCA declared that this requirement could be fulfilled through the use of a sterilized tube, eliminating the transmission of infectious diseases to the newly circumcised infant.

"It is the position of the RCA that the requirement of metzitzah is fulfilled completely and unambiguously by the use of oral suctioning through a tube, as practiced by many mohelim in our communities," the organization declared, adding, "The RCA urges its member rabbis, their congregants, synagogues and institutions, as well as the larger Jewish community, to encourage, and where possible necessitate, that metzitzah be-peh be fulfilled via a tube."

Experts said most Modern Orthodox ritual circumcisers already use latex gloves and a sterilized glass tube for suction, taking precautions not to come into contact with the baby's blood. But the practice of direct oral suction continues to be standard in many ultra-Orthodox communities.

RCA's statement is expected to upset Hasidic sects and other ultra-Orthodox communities. Leaders of these Orthodox camps have been vigorously defending the practice of direct oral suction since it came under attack last month, after New York City health officials announced that Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, a prominent Hasidic mohel from Monsey, N.Y., was suspected of transmitting the herpes virus to three infants he had circumcised. One of the infants died this past October.

Fischer is suspected of passing the oral herpes virus, which generally produces cold sores but can be passed to another person's genital area.

Government or religious attempts to ban the direct oral practice were denounced in a pointed February 18 editorial, by Rabbi Pinchos Lipschutz, editor and publisher of Yated Neeman, an ultra-Orthodox newspaper.

"Will we become like our Russian brethren in the past century who were forced under the Communists to conduct sacred bris [circumcision] in underground bunkers with sentries standing guard," Lipschutz wrote. "Are we about to revisit those days in our own country?"

Dozens of ultra-Orthodox rabbis signed a full-page Hebrew advertisement that ran in the February 25 issue of Yated Neeman, defending the practice.

A prominent Orthodox medical ethicist, Rabbi Moshe Tendler of Yeshiva University, already has come under fire from ultra-Orthodox critics, for an article in the August 2004 issue of the medical journal Pediatrics that he co-wrote, arguing against the practice. Tendler has been outspoken in recent weeks, as well.

The RCA's executive vice president, Basil Herring, said that while Tendler was not directly involved in formulating the policy statement, he was consulted and gave his approval.

נבוכדנאצר » 3/3/2005 20:15

1.
[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

נבוכדנאצר » 3/3/2005 20:16

2.
[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

מאירקע » 4/3/2005 00:34

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

מאירקע » 4/3/2005 00:35

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

מאירקע » 4/3/2005 00:35

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

בעל_גאוה » 4/3/2005 01:04

עושה מעשה זמרי ומבקש שכר כפנחס

טענדלער איז א שקרן וכזבן

קודם די פאקטן.

און ישיבה ספרינג וואלי האט ער נישט געלאזט הרב פישער מאכן מציצה בפה האט עם הרב פישער געזאגט
דא איז נישט דיין ביהמ"ד YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS
און ער האט געפרעגט דעם אבי הבן, האט ער געזאגט
I Would like to have it done like it was done by me

(איך וויל מען זאל עס טוען אזוי ווי אמאל דהיינו מציצה בפה)

האט טענדלער געזאגט פאר רב פישער איך וועל רופן פאליציי
און דער מוהל האט געמאכט מציצה בפה און טענדלער האט געשריגן רשע רוצח און ער האט גערופן פאליציי
און רב פישער האט באקומען א סאמענס - צוליב טענדלערס מסירה

יעצט וועמען וויל טענדלער פארדרייען א קאפ? ער וויל יעצט כשר'ן זיינע חזיר פיסל?

אז ער צוהעט צוריק זאל ער צוריק גיין צו די העלט דעפארטמענט און זאגן אז ער האט געמאכט א טעות און ארויס געבן א בריוו אז מען דארף מאכן מציצה בפה.

נאכדעם ווער עס האט געהערט רב שלעזינגערס דרשה ווי ער האט פארגעליינט פון עפעס (איך ווייס נישט פונקטליך וואס)
ווי טענדלער מאכט ליצנות פון חז"ל וואס אויף דעם האט ער געשריגן עפרא לפומי' קען זעהן די רשעות טון לגיונות פון דר. טענדלער

מאירקע » 4/3/2005 21:20

http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=709800

Check out YU Torah Online : Roshei Yeshiva

listen to this at about 38:30 min into the shiur

ekstein » 4/3/2005 21:25

עס איז אויך ביי די שיעור מילה איינס ביי דימינטון 59
די צווייטע איז מיר נאכנישט אויסגעקומען צו הערן
http://www.yutorah.org/searchResults.cfm?types=ALL&teacher=80197&dates=ALL&submitType=advanced

תוקן על ידי - ekstein - 04/03/2005 21:37:08

ליכטיג » 8/3/2005 23:45

YETED האט די וואך געמאכט פורים פון רב טענדלע.

זיי האבען געברענג דעם בריוו ווי ער פארענטפערט זיך אין ער לייקענט די גאנצע מסירה, אין זיי האבען צוגעלךיגט א טראנסקריפט פון א טעיפ וואס ער רעד אין ישיבה יוניווערסיטי, ווי ער שרייט בפירוש אז ער גייט אפשטעלן די מציצה בפה דורך די ליגעל אינסטאנצען, ווייל עס איז נישט די קיין בעסערער וועג מיט די סאטמארער חיות.

shia550 » 9/3/2005 07:22

The Commentator - Features
Issue: 3/8/05

'Metzitzah Be Peh': The Dangers of a Custom Intended to Heal
By Ryan Nadel

The death of a child from herpes, allegedly contracted from a mohel performing direct oral suction during circumcision, has left a permanent scar on the Jewish community. In recent weeks, the fallout from the tragedy, and the rift it has generated within the Orthodox community, has only worsened. As New York City health officials investigate the case, debate within the Jewish community surrounding the issue of metzitzah be peh, direct oral suction, has erupted. Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler, of Yeshiva University, is at the forefront of the controversy and has been vilified by the Chasidic community for his position on the issue.

The Mishnah in Masechet Shabbat (133a) records the practice of metzitzah as a secondary aspect of the circumcision process, and states that metzitzah must be performed at the end of the circumcision. The Gemara explains (ibid 133b) that refraining from performing metzitzah endangers the baby. The commentators elaborate that metzitzah is performed in order to hasten the healing of the wound. The implication of the Gemara is that metzitzah functions as a medical procedure and not a religious one.

In August of 2004, a team of twelve researchers published a study in the medical journal Pediatrics. The study documented a correlation between circumcised Jewish babies infected with herpes and the custom of metzitzah be peh. The study claims that mohelim infected with herpes represent a potential source of the disease to the infants through physical contact between the wound and the lips of the mohel.

The nature of the herpes contracted by these babies was not the more common genital herpes virus type 2, but herpes simplex virus type 1. When left untreated, 95 percent of survivors suffer from severe neurological effects. 30 percent of victims develop neurological impairments, which often manifest before two or three years of age. However, death from herpes type 1 is uncommon.

Based on their findings, the researchers concluded that the custom of metzitzah be peh should be modified to adhere to modern standards of hygiene, thus altering the custom from its ancient form. To support their recommendation from a religious perspective, the study cites the decision of rabbinic authorities in the late 18th century who ruled that metzitzah can be performed using instrumental suction. Using an instrument, in lieu of direct physical contact between the mohel and the baby, would eliminate any chance of infection of the baby by the mohel and still fulfill the halachic requirements of metzitzah.

In the last few months, the concern regarding direct oral suction climaxed with the infection of twin boys in October of 2004. Both boys were circumcised on October 16, and both of them contracted the disease. Soon after being infected, one of the twins died from the disease. On November 3, 2004, another case of herpes was discovered. The same mohel who performed the circumcision on the twin boys in October performed the circumcision in this case. In reaction to these cases the New York City Health Department issued an order against the mohel, Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer of Rockland County, demanding that he cease oral suction, use sterile gloves, and present himself for a blood sample. On December 22, the health department filed against Rabbi Fischer in court because he failed to comply with the order.

In a phone interview with The Commentator, Gabriel Taussig, Chief of Administrative Law Division at the New York City Department of Law, stressed that the investigation into Rabbi Fischer is ongoing and no conclusions have been made. However, the city's lawyers have presented a lawsuit on behalf of the Department of Health, demanding Fischer's cooperation with the investigation and obedience with the order issued to modify his practices. The degree of Fisher's cooperation is not clear. Taussig would not speculate regarding any steps the city might take in the future to regulate the matter.

The story of the incident was picked up by a local newspaper and quickly spread. On February 2, 2005 the story was carried by most major news sources. The New York Daily News contacted Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler, professor of Biology and Jewish Studies at Yeshiva, to comment on the situation. Rabbi Tendler, a contributor to the study published in Pediatrics, remarked that direct oral suction is not required and posses a risk to the baby.

Rabbi Tendler's comments were pounced upon by the right wing newspaper, Yated Neaman. The newspaper attacked him for being an 'informer' (mesir) on the Jewish community. The paper claimed that Rabbi Tendler reported Rabbi Fischer to the health department and blamed him for governmental interference with ritual circumcision. The situation erupted and pamphlets were published claiming that Rabbi Tendler wants to abolish ritual circumcision in America, resulting in the vandalism of Rabbi Tendler's synagogue in Monsey, New York.

In an exclusive interview with The Commentator, Rabbi Tendler explained his involvement with the controversy. He claimed that he never contacted the New York City Health Department, and had no knowledge of the death of the baby on October 26 from Herpes. He further explained that he did not speak to the officials at the hospital where the baby died; rather, the hospital reported the death to the Health Department.

Rabbi Tendler expressed grave concern regarding the involvement of the Health Department with religious practices. He pointed out that the constitutional separation between Church and State has allowed Orthodox Judaism to thrive in America. Rabbi Tendler also posited that the only way to solve the problem is to create a system of self regulation, a system where the Jewish community regulates mohelim. Rabbi Tendler recounted that there used to be a Milah Board, of which he was a member. The board regulated and licensed mohelim in order to maintain a basic standard of expertise and knowledge. However, the board disintegrated upon the retirement of its head and has never been revived. Rabbi Tendler stressed the necessity of such a body, stating that such an organization's existence is imperative in maintaining religious autonomy. Rabbi Tendler called on community organizations, such as the Orthodox Union (OU) and Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), to respond to the situation. He explained that these organizations should set up a licensing agency to instruct and train mohelim.

On March 2, the RCA released a statement approving and recommending the use of an instrument when performing metzitzah. However, the statement is simply a recommendation, not a demand for revised procedures.

Regarding the attacks in Yated, Rabbi Tendler expressed surprise and disappointment. He suggested that the article attempted to shift interest from Fischer to himself by labeling him an halachic 'informer' to the Health Department. Rabbi Tendler ironically noted, "if I had had all the information that Fischer had been involved in three cases of herpes and continued to perform direct oral suction, I would have been halachically required to report him to the authorities. But I did not have to do that, the hospital did". Rabbi Tendler went even further, remarking "classifying this as a matter of mesirah (informing) reflects a primitive understanding of halacha."

In response to rumors that he had been uninvited from the Agudath Israel sponsored Siyum HaShas on March 1, Rabbi Tendler explained that he decided not to go independently, because he realized the kind of social primitiveness of the people involved in the matter, which could have resulted in some form of disturbance or distraction from the ceremony.

Even though Rabbi Tendler's position of performing oral suction using a sterile instrument instead of direct oral contact has firm halachic support, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv has publicly stated that, unlike AIDS, herpes does not pose a real threat to the baby and therefore the custom of direct oral suction is permitted. Rabbi Tendler pointed out that although Rabbi Elyashiv permits using an instrument to perform oral suction when there is a concern that the mohel might contract AIDS from the baby, which has never occurred, Rabbi Elyashiv does not allow an instrument to be used to protect the baby from herpes, a substantive and documented concern.


mekele » 9/3/2005 16:47

Rabbinical group calls for change to traditional milah practice

By PAUL LUNGEN
Staff Reporter

The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) has issued a statement urging mohelim – those who perform ritual circumcisions – to perform the suction portion of the brit milah using a sterile tube and to avoid direct contact between the mohel's mouth and the infant.

The New York-based RCA, which serves more than 1,000 Orthodox rabbis in the United States and Canada, said there are no religious or medical reasons to avoid using a tube to perform the ''metzitzah be'peh,'' the suctioning of the wound that is part of ritual circumcisions.

''Based upon a careful study of the available halachic [religious legal] and scientific literature, as well as a review of sanctioned practice by numerous reliable Torah authorities past and present, it is the position of the RCA that the requirement of metzitzah is fulfilled completely and unambiguously by the use of oral suctioning through a tube, as practised by many mohelim in our communities. Therefore, according to this viewpoint, the use of such a tube is not only permissible, but is preferred instead of direct oral contact to eliminate any unintentional communication of infectious diseases. This protects both the mohel and the newly circumcised child,'' the statement said.

The rabbis note use of a tube might also encourage ''less committed Jewish men and women'' to have their children circumcised.

Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice-president of the RCA, said the council had been aware of the issue for some time and had been developing a response to concerns about it. But a string of news reports in New York that linked an Orthodox mohel to the transmission of herpes to three infants, one of whom died, provided ''the immediate impetus.''

Health officials in New York recently asked Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer to stop performing circumcisions after he was linked to three children who contracted herpes. Rabbi Fischer, who performed 350 circumcisions in the New York area, employed the traditional metzitzah be'peh.

Rabbi Fischer, 66, performed a brit milah on twins in October 2004. Ten days later, one infant died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus. A third infant on Staten Island also tested positive for herpes. The rabbi's lawyer suggested the babies might have contracted herpes in another manner.

The custom of metzitzah be'peh came under attack last summer when a group of Canadian and Israeli researchers, backed by Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a renowned New York talmudic authority, recommended that a sterile tube be used instead. The researchers found eight babies who were infected with the herpes virus likely contracted their illnesses through oral metzitzah. One of the infants was born in Toronto in 1994.

Rabbi Herring said in urging mohelim to employ sterile tubes, the RCA believes it is complying with Halachah.

''Jewish law and Jewish tradition are the guiding lights of our lives and we absolutely believe there is nothing in Jewish law that would prevent good health practices,'' he said.

The RCA's recommendation, he continued, ''makes sure our practices as Jews are both in conformity with the highest standards of Jewish law and with current knowledge. Happily, in this case, they come together.''

Dr. Gideon Koren, one of the researchers who published a report last summer on the health hazards of traditional metzitzah, said the RCA statement did not go far enough. ''They should have banned it,'' he said.

''I personally don't think the word 'preferred' is good enough. If even one Jewish child contracts herpes, it's not justified. It's a medical no-no. You just don't do it. I don't think there should be any contact.

''You can do the metzitzah mitzvah [commandment] with a tube. Therefore, the logical result is that [employing the mouth] should be banned,'' said Koren, a professor in the department of clinical pharmacology and toxicology at the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto.

''As a relatively secular Jew, I was not aware of oral metzitzah and when I learned of it, I was shocked… I don't think any truly informed parent, knowing of the chance of brain damage [from herpes] would accept the risk,'' he added.

Rabbi Herring said the language employed in the RCA statement was relatively strong, though he acknowledged the council could have said use of a tube is ''mandatory.''

But the RCA has no power to compel anyone to do anything, he said. ''This is not the Catholic Church. We don't issue directives that recognized rabbis have to follow. We can only recommend.''

The RCA ''recognizes there are other viewpoints out there and they have the right to follow their own way.''

Rabbi Moshe Shulman, who has performed brits for 14 years, said the RCA's statement correctly balances traditional practices with current medical thinking.

The Shaarei Shomayim Congregation, where Rabbi Shulman is spiritual leader, has maintained a policy for at least seven years that does not permit metzitzah be'peh for circumcisions performed on its premises.

He acknowledged there are a minority of halachic authorities who argue that using a glass tube does not fulfill the requirements of circumcision.

''It's a very difficult decision,'' he said. ''You're dealing with a change of tradition that has sanctity and with halachic issues, so you have to take that into consideration.''

But, the traditional practice of circumcision has changed greatly over the years, he continued.

Flat shields were introduced to place a barrier between the foreskin and the glans (penis) to protect the penis from the scalpel. ''That goes back centuries, but at one point, it was an innovation,'' Rabbi Shulman said.

Many mohelim today employ a topical anesthetic and instruments used in the procedure are now routinely sterilized. Both practices marked changes from ancient practice, he said.

Rabbi Shulman said he believed most circumcisions performed in Toronto involve metzitzah using a sterile implement.

Toronto's Vaad Harabonim was not available for comment, but last summer, when the medical report on metzitzah be'peh was published, Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy, a spokesperson for the Va'ad Harabonim said, ''Those in the Torah world, the yeshiva world, use the procedure, unless there's a problem.''

He said that ''haredim or those who feel they still want to go with the old way of thousands of years [of tradition] and they feel the mohel is careful'' accept oral metzitzah. He mentioned Satmar, Bobov, Lubavitch and others as examples of communities who generally use the traditional method.

In 1994, when a Toronto baby became sick with herpes transmitted from a mohel, the Va'ad Harabonim investigated and issued a brief statement saying ''there is no clinical basis in ceasing to perform metzitzah be'peh.'' However, the Va'ad also said that if the mohel exhibits cold sores, lesions or flu, oral metzitzah should be avoided, Rabbi Lowy added.

shia550 » 15/3/2005 23:50


w w w . h a a r e t z . c o m



Freedom of circumcision v. health hazard
By Nathan Guttman

WASHINGTON - The tragic death of an infant in New York's Haredi ultra-Orthodox community has put brit milah (Jewish ritual circumcision) in the spotlight over the past few weeks. The debate, which includes rabbis, mohels (ritual circumcisers) and American health authority representatives, centers on the question of how the mohel should draw blood after performing a circumcision, and whether it is prudent in modern times to permit direct contact between the mohel's mouth and the baby's sex organ. Beyond the issue of this practice itself, the discussion has extended to questions of freedom of religion versus the intervention of authorities and the sanctity of ancient practices versus scientific innovations.

The tragedy in question occurred last year in the Haredi community of Monsey, New York. The mohel, Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, circumcised twins in a double ceremony. The circumcision was performed in the traditional manner accepted among many Haredim, and consists of three stages - incision of the foreskin, its retraction and removal, and drawing of blood. According to ultra-Orthodox practice, this is done directly, with the mohel's mouth on the site of the incision.

Ten days after the brit, one of the babies died, and an examination revealed that the cause of death was herpes. The second twin also tested positive for herpes, and after New York City health authorities opened an investigation, they discovered the virus in another baby who had been circumcised by Fischer.

The public health department's initial conclusion was that there was a reasonable suspicion that all three babies had been infected by Fischer when he drew blood with his mouth. The authorities immediately forbade Fischer from performing any more oral procedures, ordered him to work only while wearing sterile gloves, and filed a complaint against him at the New York Supreme Court in Manhattan, demanding that he cooperate with the investigation and refrain from drawing blood orally until the matter is resolved.

A dangerous custom

Fischer was to report to the courthouse for a hearing on the matter yesterday, but even before it can receive full legal attention, all of the parties already are raising their claims. Fischer's lawyers, attorney Mark Kurzmann and his son Hillel Kurzmann, say that their client has been fully cooperating with the investigation, so any legal action against him is superfluous.

"The city apparently has a much broader agenda, beyond the actual investigation," says Mark Kurzmann, noting that according to his understanding, the debate is not over the medical question concerning the transmission of herpes, but the broader issue of freedom of religion. To prove his point, Kurzmann notes that even before completion of the investigation, the New York health commissioner declared that the oral drawing of blood "constitutes a threat to the public health."

Fischer, who declined to be interviewed for this article on his lawyers' advice, underwent a series of medical tests to detect the herpes virus, and is continuing to perform circumcisions in New York, for the time being without oral suction. Even before the current incident made headlines, Fischer would use a glass tube if the baby's parents requested it.

The Jewish community is divided on the question of the continued practice of direct oral contact during the brit. While many in the Haredi and Orthodox community believe direct contact between the mohel's mouth and the site of the cut foreskin is necessary, many others have adopted the more modern approach in which the blood is drawn through a small, sterilized glass tube that ensures no direct oral contact in order to avoid the risk of infection.

The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), America's largest Orthodox rabbinical organization, issued a statement supporting the use of the glass tube two weeks ago.

"The requirement [of drawing blood] is fulfilled completely and unambiguously by the use of oral suctioning through a tube," declared the RCA, adding, "One absolutely fulfills the precept whilst placing the infant and mohel at no additional risk."

Executive VP of the RCA, Rabbi Dr. Basil Herring, who initiated the declaration, says the organization felt the need, in light of the current debate, to clarify that from a halakhic (Jewish legal) and health perspective, and for the sake of appearances, it is preferable to use the tube rather than the direct oral contact method.

This approach is also in line with a study conducted and published by the Pediatrics medical magazine last year. The 12 researchers who prepared the report concluded that oral contact with the baby constitutes a risk of the transmission of herpes from the mohel to the baby. The researchers reached this conclusion after examining eight cases in which babies contracted herpes two weeks after their brit. Among the signatories of the report is Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler, who teaches biology at New York's Yeshiva University.

Tendler stressed in interviews granted to the U.S. Jewish media that herpes is much more common than many people think, and direct oral suction of blood is certainly a dangerous custom. Tendler added that even after this fact became well known, and after studies were published proscribing that adherence to the custom of oral suction needlessly endangers a baby, some parents still insist that the mohel follow the custom, and there are mohels who still continue with this hazardous practice.

Not everyone accepts this approach, even when it is presented by an Orthodox authority.

"For tens of thousands of believing Jews in the New York area, this practice is an integral part of the fulfillment of the circumcision commandment; to them it is not optional," Kurzmann says, noting that only part of the Jewish community has adopted the changes instituted in the suction method in the past 150 years.

No one has data on the proportion of circumcisions that use direct oral suction, but Orthodox community sources estimate that thousands are performed annually.

Furthermore, certain circles that had displayed lenience toward the use of the glass tube are now returning to direct oral suction and have banned the tube.

No fears

While in the United States, the Orthodox community is trying to present a creative approach to the issue of oral suction, the Orthodox neighborhoods of Jerusalem have been plastered with posters clarifying that the position of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel remains firm on maintaining the ancient tradition. The posters quote a ruling by Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the leader of the Degel Hatorah party and today's most important Ashkenazi Jewish legal authority, according to which there is nothing to fear from direct oral suction. Elyashiv states that when a mohel has a sore in or on his mouth, he should let someone else perform that part of the ceremony.

Degel Hatorah's newspaper, Yated Neeman, defined the Fischer affair as outrageous, "an attempt to harm one of the foundations of the existence of the Jewish people," and "informing (tale bearing) to the gentiles." The newspaper stated that notifying the American media regarding the spreading of herpes was "a modern form of the libel that Jews had poisoned the wells" during the time of the Black Plague.

Herring responded that the RCA "has great respect for Rabbi Elyashiv," but noted that other esteemed rabbis see things differently. "We are not the Catholic Church," he said, adding that the RCA "recognizes there are other viewpoints out there, and they have the right to follow their own way."

The dispute over the manner in which the brit should be performed, however, may have more far-reaching ramifications. Extensive media interest in the affair, which was covered not only by the Jewish newspapers, but also by local newspapers throughout the country, has placed Jewish customs in a problematic light. The reports portray the brit as a custom that belongs to a bygone era, and which should be modernized in keeping with contemporary medical and public practices.

Some members of the Jewish community also expressed fears that the baby's death would lead to increased state involvement in circumcisions. At this point, such intervention has stopped at the decision by New York state health officials to limit Fischer's activities, but the fear of regulatory intervention by state or federal authorities in brit procedures constantly lurks in the background.

Kurzmann claims that the zeal of state authorities in handing the issue over to the courts attests to the desire to intervene, and poses a real threat to the freedom of religious expression for Jews who want a brit performed traditionally.

At this point, the legal debate is not touching on that aspect, but if Fischer's case reaches the higher courts, and if New York City authorities take sweeping measures against the practice of oral suction, the courts could find themselves deliberating the principle question of freedom of religion versus health concerns.

Herring says there is another problem regarding non-Orthodox Jews. "I am more worried about what regular Jews will think, that perhaps they will suddenly say they do not want brit milah, that they are afraid of the consequences. That is my concern."

For now, that fear is unfounded. The current assessment is that all Jewish parents in the United States have their baby boys circumcised, and most of them do so according to tradition, with only a small minority opting for a surgical circumcision without a religious ceremony.


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jid_613 » 16/3/2005 04:43

ס'האט מיר איינער פארציילט אז די העלטה קאמישאנער איז געוועהן באזוכען ביי כבוד הרב בעלסקי, צו הערען דעת קדשו.
ער איז געוועהן גאר סופרוז'ד ווען דער רב האט עם געזאגט אז די מנהג פין מציצה בפה איז איינגערפירט אפילו ביי די נישט חסידישע עולםץ
נאכמער איז ער געוועהן שאקירט צו הערען פינעם רב אז אווראי וועט די סיטי נישט זיין ביכולת פראקטיש דאס צו אסר'ן וואס די רומייפ האבען דאס אויך נישט געקענט רעגולאטען!
ועל כולם האט ער מודיע געוועהן אז אויב די סיטי וועט דאס יא אסר'ן וועט ער דער רב אליין זיין די ערשטער צי מאכען מציצה בפה אין בית המדרש!!!!!

גאסט » 17/3/2005 14:28


Rabbi Targeted After Call for Bris Change
By Steven I. Weiss
March 18, 2005

A prominent Orthodox rabbi and medical ethicist says he is the target of a harassment campaign following his calls to abandon a circumcision-related ritual that may have resulted in an infant's death.

Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a bioethics expert and Talmud instructor at Yeshiva University, was criticized by ultra-Orthodox leaders and newspapers after he was quoted in the press as saying that the practice of metzitzah b'peh, or oral suction of the circumcision wound, should be conducted with a sterile tube. In many ultra-Orthodox circles, especially within certain Hasidic sects, the ritual is performed by having the mohel suck blood from the wound with his lips directly on the baby's penis.

Tendler spoke out against the practice following reports last month that a Jewish infant had died of herpes and that several other babies had contracted the virus after being circumcised by mohel Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, who practiced direct oral suction. Tendler co-authored an article in the August 2004 issue of the medical journal Pediatrics, which asserted that the risks of herpes infection should outweigh any ritual benefits of using direct oral suction.

In recent weeks, ultra-Orthodox newspapers have condemned Tendler and accused him of reporting Fisher to health officials — a claim that Tendler vehemently denies.

The baby's death is reportedly being investigated by the New York City Health Department.

According to Tendler, prank callers have inundated his home phone and vandals have struck at the synagogue in Monsey, N.Y., where he serves as religious leader.

Tendler cited the alleged harassment when he explained why he skipped the March 1 ceremony at New York City's Madison Square Garden that celebrated the completion of the cycle of daily Talmud study. "Because of the harassment, I realized that it could very well be that there would be a few crazies there," Tendler said. He avoided the event, which was organized by the ultra-Orthodox group Agudath Israel of America, "not out of physical fear, but because I felt it would detract from the really majestic event, and that the newspapers like yours would pick on that element."

Tendler painted the controversy as a wider theological conflict, extending beyond the issue of metzitzah b'peh. The real target, Tendler said, is what he represents as a rabbi and scientist working at Y.U., the flagship institution of Modern Orthodoxy.

To prove his point, Tendler said that vandals covered the floor of his synagogue with posters

containing various anti-Tendler messages, including the term dokter-rabiner. Literally meaning "doctor-rabbi," the term was employed by right-wing Orthodox activists a century ago in Germany to attack rabbis with ordination from liberal Orthodox seminaries and with academic degrees from secular universities.

Tendler noted that in addition to his Orthodox rabbinic credentials, he has a "reputation as a trained scientist."

"That's a no-no in [the ultra-Orthodox] community," Tendler said.

In another sign of the controversy evolving into an intra-Orthodox battle, the main union of Modern Orthodox rabbis, the Rabbinical Council of America, issued a statement two weeks ago urging that the direct suction practice be abandoned.

Officials at Agudath Israel, which is headed by a council of Hasidic and non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox rabbis, have defended direct oral suction. The organization's longtime, late religious leader, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, was Tendler's father-in-law.

Tendler said that Feinstein, who was the most respected arbiter of Jewish law in non-Hasidic Orthodox circles, had endured harassment after issuing a then-controversial statement approving artificial insemination. According to Tendler, Feinstein's critics "would knock on his door, [at] 2 [or] 3 o'clock in the morning."

Tendler denied that he was asked by Agudath Israel officials not to attend the Madison Square Garden event, saying that he actually had been invited. After he decided not to attend, Tendler said, the organization sent him a letter "thanking me for my sensitivity."

"Jewish law does recognize that there is a danger, and therefore compels them to use the tube," Tendler told the Forward. He noted that herpes is not a danger in adults, 90% of whom carry antibodies that indicate they've been exposed to the virus, but that it is dangerous to infants, who have undeveloped immune systems.

His public comments on the issue have drawn harsh condemnations from at least two major New York-based ultra-Orthodox media outlets, Yated Ne'eman, a non-Hasidic newspaper, and Der Yid, the Satmar Hasidic sect's newspaper. Both publications have attacked Tendler and vowed that members of their communities will continue to practice the controversial ritual, even if doing so lands them in prison.

Yated Ne'eman published a three-page editorial condemning Tendler, claiming that he had reported Fischer to health authorities. The editorial accused Tendler of mesirah, or handing over a Jew to an antisemitic state government that could do harm to the Jew in question. The newspaper subsequently ran a letter from Tendler in which he strongly denied the claims and stated that he had "the highest regard for Rav Fischer."

Fischer could not be reached for comment.

Tendler told the Forward that he was receiving prank phone calls at the rate of one "every three minutes."

The callers will "giggle, laugh shout; 'Tendler is an antisemite' is the usual line, or 'Tendler wants to abolish circumcision,'" he said.

A renowned expert on medical ethics and Judaism, Tendler said that he normally receives 10 to 20 calls a day dealing with serious health-related questions. But as a result of the prank calls, he's had to disconnect his phone.

"People know my number; rabbis give it to them," Tendler said, referring to those in urgent need of rabbinic guidance on fertility issues and life-and-death medical matters. "That's been cut off."

In addition to the calls, Tendler said that his synagogue has been struck by vandals, who "broke off the American and Israeli flags" from the facade of the building.

Tendler said he has notified the police about the vandalism and harassment. The Ramapo police said they would not answer questions from the media, except in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Rabbi Hillel Weinberger, chief rabbi of the kashrus division of the Satmer-run Monsey-based Central Rabbinical Council, told the Forward that Tendler "went against [Fischer], and went to the authorities against him."

Weinberger said that Tendler "didn't handle [the situation] like a rabbi is supposed to do." The Satmar leader also said that he has seen test results, which indicate Fischer is free of herpes.

The revelation of Tendler's Pediatrics article has people convinced that Tendler has conducted a long-running effort against direct oral suction, Weinberger said.

In response to Tendler's allegations of harassment and vandalism, Weinberger said: "I don't know if it's true... we never encourage vandalism."

"This is a fight that he will not win, because the community will not give up," Weinberger said. "This is a tradition that we're practicing from thousands of years... and we're going to stick to this."


http://www.forward.com/main/article.php?ref=weiss200503161045

קומפוט » 22/3/2005 04:33

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[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

טוב_לכל » 22/3/2005 16:28

צו ווייסט איינער וואס עס איז געווארן מיט די קאורט קעיס וואס האט נעכטן געדארפט זיין ?

לכה_דודי » 23/3/2005 04:33

ר' יענקל מילער זאגט:
אז מען האט שוין מציצה בפה אויך גע'אסר'ט איז שוין היינט נישט דא וואס אין מויל צינעמען...

selish » 27/3/2005 18:52

http://www.geocities.com/tendlersucks/

[בילד – נישט אפגעהיט]

חלילה_וחס » 4/4/2005 08:20

די שטאט איז שוין באהאנגן מיט צעטלעך וועגן די פרישע מערכה.

upstate » 9/8/2005 19:11

נוסח פון געשפרעך מיט 311 וועגן מציצה
http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=1510365

אייןסאטמאר » 9/8/2005 20:08

דאס האב איך געשיקט צןם מעיאר אין EMAIL
Hon. MAYOR MICHAEL R. BLOOMBERG
We are requesting that the mayor shall meet a delegation of orthodox rabbis from our community to discuss the issue of circumcision and let out opinion be heard. We would like to make clear that the RCA and all other modern orthodox rabbis and their followers do not represent us. We will not accept the fact that they speak in our names. Thank You
אינטערגעשריבן די נאמען

worldwar » 9/8/2005 21:57

אינטערעסאנט וואס דער שרייבט אז די קעיס איז שוין לאנג גישלאסן
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=5&topic_id=1464396